When I talk about man-like behavior I am not talking about manhood. I am talking about what my examples of man like behavior has been from my dad, uncles, godfathers -- etc.
QUESTIONS TO PONDER BEFORE READING -- as a man when you have children (for the sake of these questions she is a girl) you are going to set the example of what man like behavior looks like, right? So when she grows up to the age of dating and/or when she marries is it not fair to say she will have in her mind what man-like behavior looks like based on what you have shown her? Would it not be ok for her to have standards of what she thinks man -like behavior needs to look like for her? Is it not ok for her to say MY DAD is my example of what a man is? Is it not ok for her to say those things you shown her are the expectations she has for men period? By her having those expectation is she saying all of those that don't meet them are not men? or is she saying they are not a representation of what man-like behavior looks like to her?
the reason I feel this way is because these is my example of what man-like behavior look like.
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so let me start by stating the obvious I am a woman...I am not an expert on manhood, this post isn't about that.
So on Friday, July 2nd I was venting on twitter about these "men" and something they did. The vent kind of went like this "I hate when a man doesn't act like a man" and immediately one of my followers and my homie somewhat checked me saying "how exactly would that be?" and right there I knew what he was getting at -- umm as a woman how would you know anything about being a man. And you know what he is right I am a woman, birthed an 8lb baby girl from my snatch to prove it. But it got me thinking as a woman can I not speak on things/actions that are not man like?
Let me back up and tell you guys what prompted this rant from me -- basically there were women gathering and taking out trash AND another woman had to open the door for the woman taking out the trash...SEVERAL men standing around just watching this... yup you read that correctly! There were several men just watching these women take out the trash. So because I am who I am I said " female Y put down the trash male T I know you see her taking the trash out?" and that alone prompted male T to grab the trash and take it out. Which showed me he knew he was foul for watching her take it out and not just doing it in the first place. 
So as I proceeded to tell these details via twitter another one of my followers completely agreed with me. This reason I make a point to reference this agreement (cause I got several) is because this follower is a MAN. So then the conversation shifts to well maybe they are just not chivalrous and it has nothing to do with being a man. And that was a great point BUT as my homie Tisha said "show me a man that isn't chivalrous and i"ll show you a man that is lacking in other areas as well".
Fast forward to yesterday I brought up the question on twitter "am I the only woman who when out with her s/o doesn't/won't drive unless he is physically unable?" And most agreed with me, so then I asked my male followers "is it unreasonable expect/require the man to always drive?" and that same follower replied "nope, it should never be an issue." So the discussion in my timeline is now about some of the things EYE and a few of my followers think MEN are supposed to do. So I am getting really good responses and some funny ones also "watch one ovary channel movie, wash dishes twice a week, lay supreme pipe, and lay down the law". My Sis Reecie tweets me and says have you read THIS - What Is and Isn't a Man? - so I went over and checked it out.
Now based on pure anatomy the author is way more qualified to determine what makes a man a man... There was a part of his article I simply just don't agree with ( and actually the only part of the article I felt I even COULD comment on) "A man doesn’t hold doors, carry groceries, cuddle, hold hands, or say “I love you” because she expects him too. He does it because he wants to. Related to this, a man can’t know everything and anything. Once again, a man is a human being."
So I told Reecie I simply don't agree with that statement, she said she sees it as a gentlemen thing, not a man thing. So my response to her was, while EYE think walking on the outside, opening doors, pulling out chairs, standing when a woman enters the room are CHIVALROUS -- I think driving, taking out the trash, pumping gas, yard work, car maintenance, offer a woman standing his seat, bring in the bags from the car, and (this one raised my eyebrows) BLESSING THE MEAL are all things MEN do and things MEN should do...PERIOD!!
Fellas don't get me wrong EYE have strong opinions about what WOMEN should do as well but this entry is not about that... So am I off base here? Can a woman not say things like "act like a man"? Are there not tangible things that are a direct relationship to man like behavior?
21 comments:
Here it is, Cryssy. They're born MALES and become MEN. Unfortunately, some of them don't make that progression to the latter. A gentleman opens doors for a woman and that sorta thing. A male lets you as a woman fend for yourself.
I agree with Toni. Males must be taught (by older MEN) how to be a man. Blessing the meal is huge for me too! Having a spiritual connection is high on my list. I can always tell a male who was raised by his mom or other female authority. They are so used to seeing her be strong and do everything that they assume all women should be able to do it as well. We can, but the point is we shouldn't have too! Not in their presence! But the longer we let it slide we drive the nail further and further in Chivalry's coffin.
There are a lot of good points. What men should or shouldn't do has been put into our minds by parents or grandparents. Times has changed a lot since their time and chivalry was a big part of it. I can pull out my own chair...not a problem. I can open my door. If I get to the door first I'm not going to wait until a man gets there. Yes chivalry is nice but it's not a MUST for me. I have a firm belief in a 50/50 rule. We share responsibilities. If my man has been working hard all day and is dead tired...I will say "Baby go lay down" and take the trash out. I would expect that if I had a rough day at work that my man will say "Baby I'm going to cook dinner tonight." Who came up with the rules of what men or women should do? Honestly, if we still followed our grandparents guidelines then women will be household mothers, cleaning and cooking. At the same time I think it's about respect. If I'm cutting the grass or carrying heavy bags and a man just watches...it's like "How much respect do you have for me if you can just watch me struggle?" So I guess I would count hard labor as something men SHOULD do because they are built to do as such. I'm used to doing things like cutting the grass and taking out the trash but the day a man is living in my house...I expect most, if not all, of that labor to stop. lol
blessing the food? really Crys?
I would have never ever thought that. maybe because the way I grew up, we all took turns blessing the food.
so yeah, no bueno on that. and I still stand behind that chivalry isn't an expected trait of manhood, but I think chivalry is expected to be MY MAN ;-). There's a difference.
To imply one isn't a man because of things they may not know were "man things" is wrong, especially coming from a woman. I love a man that cooks. several women do not--does that make her less of a woman? Not at all. There will be a man thats perfectly fine with his woman being the carryout queen.
As women we can suggest, we can provide insight on what we require individually and as a mother what we expect from our sons. But thats about it. The learning by example and implementation has to come from other men. The lack of men in the home has everything to do with the disconnect today.
I also agree with Cenithia about respect because even as a woman, if I saw a woman struggling I'd help her. And thats not a gender specfic thing. I hold doors for men and women with strollers, the elderly, etc. I do it because I'm able bodied and I can. I'd hope any man I know would help a woman lift because he's the stronger person, but if I was the only one around I'd help too, if I could. *shrugs*
@Reecie the blessing the food comment made my eyebrow raise...not because I think a man should be the sole person doing it. I thought more of in terms of taking the initiative to start the blessing...
I see that chivalry is subjective... I don't think taking the trash out, pumping gas, maintaing the car, etc... are chivalrous things.
I think saying a "he is not acting like a man" is not saying they are not men. It simply implies at whatever point they are not exhibiting man-like behavior. I don't see why as a woman you, me or whomever can't say "I hate when a man doesn't act like a man".
i appreciate the fact that you are an opinionated person but it seems a lot of times our opinions differ. yes i said that you can't determine what/who a man is. after reading this i still don't think you can say what a man is. but hey opinions are like assholes. that being said, i'm sure if i came in here saying
"if a woman doesn't cook for her man every night of week, have sex with him when he wants and has at least 3 children in her lifetime then she's not a real women"
it probably wouldn't be met very well. why? because i'm a man. therefore i have no place saying what traits make a woman. sure a lot of people expect women to cook and bear children but if she doesn't does that automatically mean that she isn't a woman at all? doubt it.
back to the subject of things you think make a "man" a man. i just think that the being a man and being chivalrous are mutually inclusive but not one in the same. males who aren't chivalrous can still be men but in my opinion they aren't better men than a male who is chivalrous.
i was raised to be a gentleman. so were my brothers. are we all men? yes. as far respect for the sanctity of womanhood, i feel that two of us are better than the other two.
@ Cryssy, you can say it. you can say whatever you want. but you may get the side eye of death. Hence, Tunde. LMAO.
I also side eye men when they say things about women wearing makeup, and other things they in general just don't really know ish about in the first place!
@Tunde -- maybe I need to go back and read my post because at no point am I saying something XYZ makes some one a MAN... that is not my place! However I think I can say someone isn't exhibiting man-like behavior.
so let me be clear... saying someone isn't exhibting man-like behavior is questioning their manhood and/or telling them how to be a man?
For me to say EYE think these are things that men are supposed to do indicates that I am saying those that don't are not men?
Maybe I should have put some other words in their but I didn't. Those men like behaviors I mentioned are all things that are needed for you to be my man.
I am in no way questioning "manhood" - I can speak on the things that the men in my life have shown me as examples of man-like behavior.
I think a lot of you are reading this like well they didn't do xyz so I am saying they are not men...that is really not what I am saying...
but you typed
"I think driving, taking out the trash, pumping gas, yard work, car maintenance, offer a woman standing his seat, bring in the bags from the car, and (this one raised my eyebrows) BLESSING THE MEAL are all things MEN do and things MEN should do...PERIOD!!"
not to be YOUR man, but to be A man. so yes, to me you are telling them how to be a man. doing these things = a man.
I'm done, though. LOL
Wow...seems like there was a lot of conversation about this topic.
Now I think I see what you're trying to say, but I think that it came across to the masses the wrong way. Yes I do believe in chivalry (i.e. holding open doors, walking on the outside, et. al), but I know dudes that had all types of male influence in their lives, but don't do that type of stuff. I don't respect them any less, but I think that there are ladies who don't care either way if he does or not.
With that said, I do think that this post is an indicator of what you want to see in YOUR dude, and not only yours, but all dudes...but in the end, I think that your opinion of what a man should be like is just that...your opinion. I think that a man is gonna ultimately decide what his definition of a man is goin to be, and it's up to you as a woman to decide on whether or not you will accept his definition.
Cause in the end, if you don't accept it, someone else will.
Ladies in an era where YOUR independence is more golden than your partnership with another man. Please believe it is very hard for me to remain objective to this topic. Yes we as man need to step our game up in the chivalry department especially when we are taught by men and women how to treat a woman. Yes it is a shame for a man to watch a woman struggle with heavy objects but taking out the trash is not gender specific. You did it when you were single every now and again it wont hurt you to take the trash out to the trashcan it doesn’t smell any better if we take it out. Yes a man should open doors for a woman hands down, but please don’t condemn the whole world if one man forgets. Men are humans just like YOU; we have lapses in judgment and screw up. Blessing the table I don’t necessarily agree with, hell were both Christians why can’t you bless our food as well. It doesn’t nourish our bodies any less if you bless it, if it did then the nights when my father was working late are a clear indication that are food was damned from the get go BUT me and my sisters grew up healthy strong and nourished when my mother said the grace just as we did when my father did. Taking the initiative is one thing but your relationship is not doomed or over or make or any less of a spiritually connected and it doesn’t make him any less of a MAN if he doesn’t always bless the food. He doesn’t respect you any less if he messes up. Now if it’s a deliberate inconsideration than he probably doesn’t care period, and again that’s a shame. However there was a period of time when you said you didn’t need us for nothing after awhile we get the hint no matter how brainless you think we are at times. Now does that justify it no not necessarily, But as vie stated on twitter many times you expect us to know what you are really thinking you tell us you don’t want us then you get mad when we leave you to fend for yourselves help us out here ladies please what is it you really want from us. Because I may just be speaking on my behalf but I want to know so that I can be the best man to a woman that I can humanly do possible. Now granted not all women have taken the extreme view of expelling the male dependence from their lives, just like you we make silly generalizations about the opposite gender as a whole, funny how we are on the same level at times its crazy right.
(CONT) Contrary to popular belief there is no rule book on how to be a man we all go through are trifling dog aint shit phase, but like any good thing it takes progress and teaching. Yes we need to check ourselves as well as fellow males on when they have done a woman wrong or on how to treat a woman. But that takes time, granted we know the main parts, to support our women in every way humanly possible, to take care of our women, to protect love and care for our women, is the bulk of what we know and try to live by. If a man is not doing what you think is right TELL him speak your mind being quiet serves no one any good some need to be taught some need to remember past lessons of being a man, but teach within reason. And ladies would it really hurt you to do something’s just cause it needs to be done and you can do them. We get tired as well we like to be appreciated and catered to as well. Understand now that the lines are blurred between what men and women should do and we have equal shares in blurring them. Understand that what you were taught how a man should act may not be necessarily what that man was taught be rational enough to realize that something’s you have to charge it to the game. Men have to learn from making mistakes, but let us are men and are MAN enough to realize we were wrong and apologize doesn’t castrate us because we made you angry one time I was engaged once and after while I learned we make you angry allot. Imp not Dr Phil or Steve Harvey but what imp trying to say is some of us are trying to make it right and be more chivalrous, but we need you to be reasonable with us, know that times have drastically changed and that what happened in the baby booming days is not happening now. And please stop acting like you know how men are supposed to act cause hell even MEN don’t know the exact way, we mess up. Sorry if I repeated myself, for the grammar, and if my thoughts were all over the place I hope I shed some light on the situation, and I stand by what I said.
Colin you said a lot... and I could dedicate an entire entry to your points --- a lot I agree with.
One of the things I was reminded I needed to say is this.... I am speaking on tangible things example - cooking doesn't define my womanhood but it is a tangible thing I think woman should do.
And I totally agree we have to be clear on our expectations and while it took me a lot of heartache but I get it.
D Mitch right manhood is not defined by anything I posted it is simply about what EYE consider man-like behavior based on the examples I have grown up with.
Well.
I can speak with absolute authority on what any man who wants to have the pleasure of *my* time and companionship should do. Not as *a* man but as *my* man. Is a man any less of a man because he doesn't do these things? Well see I can't speak to that because…..he gets to define what man is to him, I get to define what I need a man to be for me, and if these two intersect in any way then, hey....we might wanna talk more! :)
All that said, I stand by the quote you used, Cryssy. If I meet a man who isn't chivalrous he is surely lacking in other areas and certainly not someone I'd consider as a life mate--or even date. BUT...he might still be a man to someone else...and, more importantly, to himself.
Now, if I tell a man I’m seeing that, for example, "I feel disrespected when you see me walk in the house with an armful of bags from the grocery store and you don't make any attempt to help me with the bags." If he's a secure man ( I make this distinction because, imo, an insecure man would immediately zero in on what he *thinks* I’m saying about him and go wherever that takes him, totally ignoring the fact I used an “I” statement; we talkin’ bout ME, pimpin’, not you! Lol) he will simply say "Why does that make you feel disrespected?" This allows for important dialogue to take place. I can tell him that the men I was raised around conduct themselves a certain way around women. They don’t let her take out the trash, they don’t let her struggle with bags, etc. I can tell him that I saw this as an expression of love and respect and that when those things don’t happen for me I feel less loved and less respected. ‘Cause...that's the real issue. Not what you do or don't do but what it means. What’s paramount to me may be of little to no consequence to him for any number of reasons. In sticking with the bags example, maybe he grew up in a house where getting the bags out of the car was rotated, irrespective of gender. Or maybe he grew up with just a mom or just a dad so there was always only that one person getting the bags out of the car at any given time. So, you have to get to the bottom of a situation prior to simply writing off one’s man- or womanhood. ‘Cause it can go both ways, as Tunde alluded to earlier.
At any rate, Cryssy, I would have had the same reaction you had to able bodied men sitting around while women took out the trash. Because of how I was raised and what it means to me. But the moral of this story for me, is, everyone gets to define themselves. And…if you find somebody who fits your definition and you fit theirs, you might wanna stick it out to see what the end is gon’ be.
Ok. Well here it is for me. Everyday man shit is done REGARDLESS of WHO the woman is. I feel that your post is about everyday man shit. To me, taking out the trash, driving your woman, and car maintainance is not chivalry, but man shit. If you take out the trash of your gf but won't for any other woman? Boo to you. Although my dad was in my life growing up we didn't live in the same house. So for the most part, it was my Mom that taught me "man shit". I don't take your post as trying to determine MANHOOD, but more like "I need to see men doing Man type shit". I don't think there is a such thing as a "man car" vs. "unmanly car" and nothing is wrong with a man keeping his appearance up but some women think a dude shouldn't drive a 300 series Beemer or "say" he's getting his feet done. Boo to them, but that's not what THIS is about. So carry on little sister and feel what you may.
@Tisha one of my biggest issues when trying to communicate a point is I am not a fan of needing to explain the reason behind why I feel a certain way. But because you are who you are you captured the essence of what I was saying. Thank you
@Sean I knew you would understand exactly what and where I was coming from. And I know that 300 series comment was for me but like you said this post ain't about that.
if you cant explain how you feel then you cant expect him to change or any man to do what you need
thats like telling him to study for a paternity test.
if you cant explain to him why you dont like a certain thing he will never know what the problem is and continuously make the same mistake over and over again, its the definition of insanity (doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results)
cause first and foremost communication is the key in any relationship friendly or romantically.
alot of this is stemming into what women want for their men to do not what men should do or act. And like Sean, Tunde and D.Mitch we're doing manly things. i just think its not the manly things you want for your specific man to do instead of us men as a gender should act enlighten me if im wrong
@Collin I have no issue letting the men I deal with know exactly what my wants and needs are. I use to struggle with that....
Again I am talking about man-like behavior and what that looks like for me because of my examples. And to Sean's point it looks the same whether you are my man or not hence why I was upset when those men didn't offer to take the trash out for the females.
So while taking out the trash doesn't define manhood it is a tangible thing I think men should do .
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